Navigating A Good Faith Bike Purchase Negotiation: A Personal Account

At the end of 2018, I purchased a same-year Canyon Ultimate CF SLX with fewer than 500 miles, a month or two of usage, for a little over $3K, representing a discount of about 35% from its new retail price if you count sales tax. Originally, the seller was on eBay, but I noticed they lived in the same general area as me. I thought if I could safely move the transaction to a physical meetup, they’d be more open to discounting. I was able to do so, and here’s the main message I shared with the seller – I’ll break down each paragraph with commentary on the approach.

Original Message

“Thanks for the extra info. I’ve been tracking market prices for higher-end, lower usage second-hand bikes for a while – it feels like 30-45% off retail is the normal range, depreciation is really high. I admittedly could be wrong in this case – it’s not often Canyons go on sale.

$3,600 is about 20% off from original build retail. Your build is slightly different from stock, so it’s not a perfect comparison, but I find that the market does not value premium add-ons like wheels very well. It’s usually much better to piece them out. I think it’s because everything is so subjective based on the rider for things like wheels, handlebars, saddles. For example, I am familiar with the wheels and like them.

Selling in winter when there’s less demand (hard to get excited for a new bike if you’re in the snow) but more supply (lots of off-season sales) makes this more difficult as well.

My budget is $3K. Using the $3,600 as a starting point, with 10% of fees going to eBay, if we could do something direct with local pickup, there would still a difference of $240. To help bridge that gap, would it be of value if you kept the pedals and/or mount? I am not sure I can use the mount – I have a Wahoo Elemnt.

If you wanted more time to see how eBay reacts to the listing, I could wait over the weekend too. Open to your thoughts.

Thanks again for the consideration,

Michael

Breakdown and Analysis

Opening Gratitude and Market Reference:

“Thanks for the extra info. I’ve been tracking market prices for higher-end, lower usage second-hand bikes for a while – it feels like 30-45% off retail is the normal range, depreciation is really high.”

Analysis: Starting with a thank you sets a cooperative tone. Mentioning market research establishes that my offer is informed and reasonable, setting the stage for a rational negotiation based on data rather than just haggling.

Acknowledgment of Uncertainty and Appeal to Fair Comparison:

“I admittedly could be wrong in this case – it’s not often Canyons go on sale.”

Analysis: By admitting potential error, I position myself as reasonable and open, which can encourage the seller to also be flexible and fair. It subtly invites the seller to correct me if I’m wrong, fostering a dialogue rather than a confrontation.

Pointing Out Specifics About the Bike and Market Valuation:

“$3,600 is about 20% off from original build retail. Your build is slightly different from stock, so it’s not a perfect comparison, but I find that the market does not value premium add-ons like wheels very well.”

Analysis: Here, I’m making a case for my proposed price by highlighting the differences in the bike’s configuration and how these are generally valued in the market. This educates the seller on why my offer is fair given these factors.

Seasonal Timing:

“Selling in winter when there’s less demand (hard to get excited for a new bike if you’re in the snow) but more supply (lots of off-season sales) makes this more difficult as well.”

Analysis: I leverage external factors such as seasonal demand, which are beyond our control, to justify a lower price, suggesting that waiting might not be in the seller’s best interest.

Direct Negotiation and Closing the Gap:

“My budget is $3K. Using the $3,600 as a starting point, with 10% of fees going to eBay, if we could do something direct with local pickup, there would still a difference of $240. To help bridge that gap, would it be of value if you kept the pedals and/or mount? I am not sure I can use the mount – I have a Wahoo Elemnt.”

Analysis: I present my budget transparently, showing how close I am to their asking price and suggesting practical ways to bridge this gap without affecting the perceived value of the offer. Offering to forgo accessories like the pedals and mount simplifies the negotiation by reducing complexities and potential objections.

Flexibility and Encouraging Decision Making:

“If you wanted more time to see how eBay reacts to the listing, I could wait over the weekend too. Open to your thoughts.”

Analysis: This shows flexibility and respects the seller’s autonomy, making it clear that I’m not pressuring for an immediate decision, which can build goodwill and increase the likelihood of them considering my offer seriously.

By dissecting this negotiation, you can see how combining empathy with a strategic approach creates a compelling case for your proposal. This method not only increases the chances of a favorable outcome but also maintains a positive relationship with the seller, regardless of the result.

4W/KG!

After a personal record up Alpe du Zwift today, under 50 minutes for the first time, I have bestowed the 4W/KG achievement on myself.

After the the ride (consistent with how I always weigh myself), I came in at 144.4 pounds, or slightly higher than my Zwift weight of 143 pounds. Using my actual weight, 4W/kg = 261.8 watts.

Doing 266 watts for 48 minutes, I got these FTP projections, all of which are above the 262W threshold.

  • Intervals.icu: 264W
  • Xert 268W
  • Zwift: 263W

If I had done just 245W for another 12 minutes, I would have still surpassed 262W for one full hour. I feel comfortable saying I could have done that.

After 8 years, it’s a great achievement, but also doesn’t change anything. It’s just nice to know I was able to do it and I want to keep going and apply it in the real world.

A Legit Zwift Win?

The good news: a legit Zwift victory in a time trial across all classes through a personal record of 254 watts for 54 minutes.

The bad news: My weight was underreported (I didn’t mean to cheat!). My weight post ride was 144.4 pounds, 1.6 kg / 3.5 lbs higher than reported on Zwift. My time differential was 1 minute 26 seconds so I feel like I would have won no matter what.

The big takeaway was that my power wasn’t quite my goal of 4.0 w/kg for the 54 minutes, but the still strong yet not-quite good enough 3.88 w/kg.

I’ll keep pushing.

Achieving 4W/KG: My Cycling Journey Complete?

From: Intervals.icu

I started cycling in the summer of 2016 after purchasing a used 2010 Kestrel Talon for $750. I started training at the end of that year with TrainerRoad, and ever since it’s been a long path towards a single metric of performance: 4W/KG. I hit 3W/KG within a couple of months and hoped I could 4W/KG within a couple of years.

Those years became 8, at least according to estimates from Intervals.icu with eFTP and TrainerRoad with AIFTP.

To understand the full context, FTP stands for Functional Threshold Power for cyclists. It’s a measure of your power over a sustained period of time. It’s supposed to be the max power you can make for one complete hour, but if you can imagine, it’s quite mentally and physically challenging to go 100% for that long, so many people like to use 95% of one’s maximum 20 minute power.

From: TrainerRoad

Sometimes, even 20 minutes can be too long, or perhaps you do really good power for 30 minutes, but didn’t try to maximize the 20. How do you calculate FTP then? In recent years, there have been a number of methods to try to calculate it based on your best power for X amount of time. And from these methods, I have been told that I have hit 4W/KG.

I don’t quite believe it myself. A few days ago, I hit 251W (avg) for 47 minutes. It wasn’t the best day for me, but I think if I were well rested, I could hit 255W. Could I have extended that further, to say 50, 55, or 60 minutes? Perhaps.

If I could do my projected power close to one hour, I’ll definitely be able to achieve my goal 1 hour mark at Mt Diablo. The only thing to do now is to keep training and see if I can push my high power for longer. I need something close to one hour at 260W to believe I truly hit 4W/HR. As a mid-40’s cyclist, I know my time to maintain such fitness becomes harder and harder.

Experiments with Polarized Training

After I got injured this past July, I decided to change things with my training. I had gotten a bit bored with my outdoor riding and I found my indoor sessions a bit stressful as well. I’ve long tried to do 3 sessions totaling 4-5 hours a week and work really hard in those sessions to maximize the limited time, but over the long term I would always find myself getting frustrated and couldn’t enjoy them.

Now, I’ve decided to try my own formula of polarized training.

“Polarized training is a training approach that focuses on scaling down moderate-intensity running to emphasize easy and hard efforts. This approach emerged from research on elite endurance athletes and has been widely adopted by coaches and athletes.”

Basically this means training at the extremes, either really easy or really hard, generally following an 80% (easy) / 20% (hard) structure. There are more total hours involved, but since most of the work is easy, your body doesn’t feel overwhelmed in recovery. This is how pro cyclists train. I was always hesitant to try this because I don’t have 15+ hours to train each week, and I don’t like the type of hard workouts you’re supposed to do, VO2 Max and Threshold intervals. I don’t mind working, I just hate the mental focus required in intervals. For example, it can be easier for me to try threshold-level [power in huge chunks (30+ minutes) than a series of intervals. What I’ve decided to do this time is replace those typical hard efforts with Zwift racing, in which I’ll go as hard as I can to win races and improve my race results.

Depending on the Zwift race, this will likely look like 30 minutes to one hour of .95+ IF (95% normalized power of my theoretical 1 hour power) riding. I’ll do races on Monday and Fridays, and do my Zone 2 riding in between. What’s really nice is that Zwift now has Zwift Racing Score to help riders race against people of the same level. It’s no longer just 4 classes – I was in Class B since 2017 and raced over 200 times without getting close to a victory. Since my restart of indoor riding last in August, I’ve won three times. I don’t necessarily need to win to feel good, but knowing I could win occasionally makes things more fun. As I keep going up in score, perhaps I’ll return to the old normal of always being in the middle of the pack, but for now things feel better.

The goal of polarized training is to help you put in as much work possible to develop your fitness sustainably. If you do an intense workout that knocks you out physically or mentally for the following 3 days, you can’t make consistent progress.

Here’s the breakdown:

  • 5 sessions per week – 8 hours in Zone 2, 1-1.5 hours of Zwift racing / time trial efforts.
  • Zone 2 level rides: 65% to 70% of max heart rate. Try to increase power while staying in Zone 2 over time.
  • 5000 calories burned per week, 1000 per day.
  • 400 TSS per week.
  • 5 week cycle: 4 weeks of polarized training, followed by 1 rest week of 3 days of riding – 1 Zwift race and 2 one hour Zone 2 rides, followed by 4 days of rest.

In this structure, the races give me something fun to look forward to at the beginning and end of each week. With the low stress Zone 2 riding, I can switch between watching tv, checking work messages, and listening to music so I don’t get too bored. I simply ride around the Zwift world but don’t follow a specific workout. Instead, I monitor my heart rate, calories, and normalized power for the ride, and keep those within the guidelines I set for myself.

After the 4 weeks of training, I’ll take a rest week and do a FTP test after the time off to benchmark my performance.

My Goals

I would like to grow stronger than ever, hitting 4 w/kg in FPT. I’ve been trying to hit those goal for the last 7 years after getting to 3.5 w/kg in just a year. My FPT now is likely in the 250-260 watt range. As a percentage, I’m only looking for a 5-8% jump in power. But it’s really hard. Once I achieve this, I will firmly be in the top 10% of training cyclists.

As part of training 9-10 hours a week, I hope to sustain more power for longer once event season comes along. This year, I was able to hold .7 IF for 6-7 hours by being more steady in those rides, less volatility in power. I’d love to boost that to .75. IF, an increase of 10-15 watts for the duration of the ride.

My Progress and Impression

So far I have finished two five week cycles. Here’s how I’ve been feeling:

  • I take weekends off and come in Mondays feeling strong.
  • Even at the lighter Zone 2 intensity I find myself feeling tired throughout the day, sometimes in the legs, but generally feel OK the next day for another Zone 2 ride.
  • Lower cadence (80 rpm) allows me to push a lot more power at the same heart rate than higher (95 rpm) cadence. But I definitely feel more muscle stress during and after the ride. I’d like to fluctuate between both so I can practice for different types of terrain in the real world.